Lucifer?

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Permalink Reply by Lyssa Dragonshadow on October 15, 2008 at 5:32pm

The first thing to understand, is that when Christianity spread into Europe, especially the british isles with the strongest pagan roots, and up the norway areas, also very strong in their pagan beliefs, they demonized the pagan gods, and equated them evil and the Devil the help convert the pagans. Much the same as Yule became Christmas, Ostara became Easter, Samhain became Halloween. The Christians even changed from worshipping on Saturdays to Sundays because the pagans worshipped on Sundays in honor of the sun god.

I cannot say specifically that the two lucifers you refer to are the same or not, as I haven't studied that aspect specifically, but there is a good chance they are, seeing as that was the methods of the christians. The christian Devil has many names, even Samhain (pronounce by them as Sam-hane, where we pronounce is sow-en). IT was all in an effort to demonize our gods to make ancient pagans more susceptable to conversion.

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Permalink Reply by Lark on October 15, 2008 at 5:53pm

The Lucifer in Pagan theology is NOT the same as the Christian Lucifer nor of the Devil.

In Stregha, which is a form of Italiam Witchcraft, Lucifer is a Roman God and the personification of Venus, the Morning Star..the name meaning "Light Bringer". Lucifer and Diana were the parents of Aradia who the Stregha believe is the Goddess and teacher of Witches. A good resource on the subject is "Aradia, Gospel of the Witches" by Charles Leland.

-Lark-

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Permalink Reply by Lyssa Dragonshadow on October 15, 2008 at 6:00pm

Very nice, that doesn't mean that the christians didn't associate the name with their Devil to help demonize him for conversion. The did the same thing with Pan and Cerunnunos. (sorry if I spelled that wrong, I can never spell it unless I am reading it). They did the same thing with most of the pagan pantheons. Hades, Poseiden, they took all the old pagan gods, associated them with evil, to make it easier to convert us.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying you are wrong. Technically, since the Devil is a christian creation, then it isn't possible for the Roman God Lucifer to be the same being. I don't personally believe in the Devil, at least not as Christians believe in him.

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Permalink Reply by Lark on October 15, 2008 at 6:06pm

But the Lucifer in Christian belief is drawn from Hebrew sources, not from Roman ones. The Lucifer that is the Christian Satan is talked about in the Old Testament, long before Roman culture and Hebrew culture crossed paths. So it is unlikely that in this case they are the same or that the Lucifer from Roman belief was demonized by the Christians. Certainly that did happen in many cases, but it does not appear to be that way in this case.

-Lark-

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Permalink Reply by Lyssa Dragonshadow on October 15, 2008 at 6:10pm

OK, As I said in my first post, I don't know much about that aspect of it, so I will bow to your knowledge on this one.

I will point out one point, that you may be able to explain though, That the roman pantheon is just the greek pantheon renamed. And since the hebrews had a lot of greek influence, is that a possible source for the "similarity." Don't forget that there is a lot of roman prior to christian roman.

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Permalink Reply by Lark on October 15, 2008 at 6:24pm

No, no, no. The Roman pantheon is NOT the same as the Greek pantheon. True each pantheon had Gods that were seen by their respective cultures as being in charge of certain areas of responsibility, but the Gods were not one and the same.

One of the things that Romans tended to do was to look at a God in a different culture and say "what does this God do". Once they had that job description they would say, "Oh, then they are similar to ____" It doesn't mean that they necessarily saw the Gods as being the same.

And Greek influence in the Middle East, especially Israel was actually much later than the stories of the fall of Lucifer in the Old Testament. The story of Lucifer comes from a period in Hebrew writings that well predates Greek influence in Israel or even the rise of Rome as a culture.

-Lark-

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Permalink Reply by Fiamma on September 25, 2009 at 3:58am

There's also the fact that a lot of what is often mistaken for "Roman mythology" is actually Greek mythology with Roman names. Ovid's Metamorphoses, for example is Greek mythology rewritten by Ovid, with Roman names substitued. This seems to trip a lot of people up.

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Permalink Reply by Minerva Clay on September 30, 2009 at 3:40pm

Um... Lucifer meant "Light Bringer" in Judeo-Christian roots too. Christianity demonizes many "demons", which are actually pagan gods before their adaptation in, mostly. I have an article on that in my blog, actually.

I will also disagree that Roman and Greek gods are not the same. They are, or you are very much undermining the true power behind these ancient spirits, relegating them to one particular hierarchy and more limited definitions that a few particular men saw of them. These are not simple faces that stayed only with a few people and a few people only; the lenses that people viewed them through were diverse as they were in many regions.

Unsurprisingly, civilizations that had never contacted each other and would have had no chance to even often named similar gods with etymologically similar names--some sounded similar in spite of lingual differences, others had identical meanings. Though not a deity, a perfect example of this is the story of Noah and the flood. Look into how names and perceptions mildly evolve, but tell the same story and even share impossibly similar names.

Lucifer = Lucifer = Lucifer. That's not to say the wiccan Lucifer is bad, just perhaps misunderstood, as are most demons that have been tackled by Judeo-Christian texts. It's hard to believe in obeying only one god and having one ultimate good guy when there's all kinds of gods out there that are less fire and brimstone. So freak some people out, tell some creepy stories, and what do you know? Lucifer's the big baddy now. I've watched the same thing occur to Asmoday over time and generations.

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Permalink Reply by Ashfox on December 31, 2009 at 4:12pm

Hi Lyssa
I am with Lark on this one. Here's a good (public domain) book that explains side-by-side the differences of the Gods between the two pantheons. Hope it helps - it helped me.

Ashfox

PS- Lark- Obviously I'd be interested to know your opinions of the book, too, as it helped me immensely.

Attachments:

• A_hand_book_of_mythology.pdf, 11.7 MB

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Permalink Reply by Lady of the Graveyard on March 14, 2009 at 5:39am

Hebrew / Canaanite Lucifer is still praised in Judaic Morning Service. They demonised Canaanite Lucifer (Shahar) to their own twisted angel story, as Luciferianism also pre-dates Christianity - so Satanism technically is not a Christian invention, either.

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Permalink Reply by The Night Dweller on January 11, 2010 at 3:12pm

Woot, best response, right here.

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Permalink Reply by Leah J(Rowan) on February 6, 2010 at 11:26pm

The Roman Lucifer was attached to the Christian Devil (who did not exist as anything but the adversary, lit. devils advocate before Christianity) by Christians looking to demonize pagan gods they encountered. Lucifer means the light bearer, and Christian mythology casts the Devil as the brightest light among the angels of God until he chose to turn away from god. He was jealous of humans. Since he was the brightest light of the angels, Lucifer worked very well as a name assigned to the fallen angel.

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